PTSD has been around for a long time, as humankind has grappled with the environment and other humans. But the experiences of the military in recent wars again bring it to the fore. And disasters like the Gulf oil spill remind us that PTSD can affect anyone. We take a brief look at post-traumatic stress disorder, as a form of memory not unlike an acid flashback, and new avenues of therapies, including the use of ecstacy (MDMA).
Archive for the ‘Psychiatric medications’ Category
Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder & Ecstacy
Thursday, July 29th, 2010DSM-5 draft released for comment
Wednesday, March 3rd, 2010The draft version of the new DSM – Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5) was released for public comment recently. The DSM is viewed as the bible of the mental health community – used in defining what is a mental disorder by establishing criteria and terminology. Though the changes might appear cultural or semantic, their impact is far reaching – affecting legal matters, industry and government programs and medical and mental health treatment – with a potential of billions of dollars at stake for pharmaceutical companies, insurance and government health plans, doctors, researchers and patiences advocacy groups. It was last revised in 2000, and won’t be finalized until 2013. And controversy is swirling around it. Dr Inaba explains.
Transcript (edited):
CNS: Welcome to the CNS Podcast featuring Dr. Darryl Inaba, research director for CNS Productions.
CNS: The draft of the new DSM, (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual Disorders #5) was released for public comment – it is produced by the American Psychiatric Association. It’s viewed as the bible of the mental health community, in defining what a mental disorder is, by establishing criteria and terminology. And on first look, it seems like an exercise in semantics. But the impact of changing is far reaching – effecting legal matters, industry, government programs and of course the medical and mental health treatment communities. And, of course the billions of dollars at stake for pharmaceutical companies, insurance companies, government health plans, doctors, researchers, etc. This is the first update since 1994, so it will be almost 20 years by the time it’s finalized and released in 2013. Darryl, do you remember when the last version came out.
DARRYL: That was…when DSM #4 was accepted and it created a stir. It is vitally important for reimbursement, for acceptance of certain conditions that are billable to insurance and anytime there is something that involves that much money there will be lot of politics. They’re giving themselves 3 years to circulate the draft so people can either attack it or give input, before it is finalized in 2013, so that in itself tells me this will create a lot of controversy.
CNS: So far the only behavioral addiction included is gambling, none of the other ones like internet and sex.
DARRYL: That is a disappointment because the DSM #4 did recognize a lot of impulse control disorders that were well documented, and well accepted as a compulsive behavior that causes people tremendous harm and suffering, but it looks like they could not find enough scientific evidence for sex or internet addiction, so they are leaving those out now.
CNS: What becomes of those?
DARRYL: I imagine they’re going to be retained in some broader category. When they can’t fit something neatly into a specific mode it is classified as “N.O.S.” which stands for “not otherwise specified” and I suspect there will be some of that because people like Tiger Woods are in the news – people who are actively in treatment for sexual addictions, for internet addictions, for obsessive text messaging…things like that.
CNS: We’ve talked about the mechanisms and the obsessions of these behavioral problems before and I find it really interesting that they would exclude these things There are obvious changes in terminology like “mental retardation” is now “intellectually challenged”, but what is the thinking behind removing compulsive behaviors? Is it a lack of credible science at this point?
DARRYL: Well, that’s what the claim is. The architects and writers of the DMS are extremely politically correct. They tend to be careful about naming things or identify things in ways not to offend any specific race or any specific group of people to prevent creating a stigma or making the prejudice against certain of these conditions worse. Maybe people believe that we should not pay for somebody to get treated for sexual addiction or for shopping addiction or for hording.
CNS: Or maybe it’s viewed, at least by the framers of this document, as something so ubiquitous that it isn’t a mental disorder, but as a common part of society now.
DARRYL: They are trying to eliminate things that are just a common part of human behavior that sometimes cause some people problems. Whenever we talk about any of these disorders – sexual disorder or even internet disorder – we’re careful to note that all of these things are a common part of most people’s lives, it is the abnormal participation, the extreme obsession that classifies the activity as a disorder. Sexual addiction causes a person to have tremendous relationship problems, maybe even health problems. They are unable to participate in sex like most people do, they must do it obsessively and abnormally and that’s why I can’t understand the exclusion. I believe there is a lot of evidence that shows that some people are totally obsessed with the internet, totally obsessed with shopping, obsessed to the point that they’re not accomplishing anything. The shopaholics I’ve known will buy 5 Waterpick shower heads because they’re on sale even though they have only one shower in their house and it has a perfectly good shower head. They just can’t prevent themselves from picking it up, putting it in the cart and getting some relief from the act of buying it. They have maxed out credit cards, are deep in debt, experience tremendous suffering, relationship problems, family problems, yet they continue. So, I believe that is a disorder that merits inclusion as a diagnosis and treatment. You can treat it and help people get over it. Shopping is a normal behavior, but not the pathology we see in a shopping addiction. Gambling is included, and certainly a lot of people gamble. They’re thousands of normal gamblers, these people are not pathologic or problem gamblers, but evidence shows that certain people are so beyond normal in their gambling activity that they sacrifice so much and have so many catastrophic consequences that it becomes pathological and thereby merits inclusion as the first behavior compulsion to be added to the DSM 5. Maybe by 2013 we may see more inclusions.
I want to zero in on the changes in terms of addiction substance use disorder. Back in 1994, DSM 4 changed the term to describe a compulsion to drugs and created a whole new nomenclature that I’ve been using for 20 years in order to gain wider acceptance of the term substance use disorder. That term lifts the stigma attached to the word “addiction” and “addicts” and hopefully turns it into a more medically appreciated condition referred to as substance use disorder. That term indicates dependence and abuse. Some people are applauding the prominent use of the word addiction, some people are not. This highlights the politics that goes into the creation of this standard diagnostic manual. Although everybody recognized that the word addiction has negative connotations and therefore may not be good to use as a descriptive term…what occurred or what the authors are dealing with is the fact that when they use substance use disorder and substance dependence or substance abuse, they believed that substance dependence was so connected to the term addiction that it created problems for psychiatrists for whom this is the standard bible for the diagnosis and treatment of neuropsychiatric disorders. When psychiatrists prescribe antipsychotic medications, antidepressant medications, or mood stabilizing medications to treat those conditions – the medications produced dependence. This created a tolerance – the body became used to medication and caused withdrawal symptoms. The thinking that connected or confused the issue has to do with people thinking they were addicted because they took a major antipsychotic medication. It’s important to separate that type of dependence. A dependence on medication is okay because it is part of treatment versus addiction. The term addiction describes the compulsivity and the drug seeking behavior that occurs in addicts…in anyone who is dependent on a drug that can cause addiction.
Cannabis use disorder is going to be included in the new DSM 5 and they’re proposing a new terminology for withdrawal. It is called “discontinuation syndrome” instead of withdrawal and addresses what the treatment community has professed for years that cannabis dependence does occur – creating tolerance dependence and withdrawal symptoms. So that’s a new one. Caffeine is also included. I’ve always believed in the need to consider caffeine as a major addictive substance. And that rounds out the new spectrum of addiction and related disorders. I thought the spectrum would be much broader in terms of different behaviors and different ways people use this drug, but no…they’re just going to be defined by drug. They are going add the severity terms – looking at moderate use versus severe cannabis use disorder and further describing what that means. It is not just “you’re dependant” or “not dependant”, but rather within a spectrum of severity. I think one of the most interesting things happening in the substance abuse field is the addition of drug craving as a criteria for defining a problem or defining somebody with say an alcoholic disorder. That is big because up to now, even in DSM 4, it has been excluded. Craving wasn’t considered a biological condition but rather just a manipulation by addicts to return to using their drug. Because the actual science of addiction is growing the addition of drug craving as a criteria for defining conditions and describing what those cravings are is huge. I hope that will result in changes in how we treat addiction and increase the resources available. The one thing that I am happy to see is the elimination of law enforcement problems as criteria for diagnosing certain addiction problems. In the old system, one of the elements that indicated a substance use disorder was a problem with law enforcement – if a person had been arrested or jailed…now they’re saying no…that’s out of the picture. I think that’s good, maybe it is a move toward looking at the decriminalization of addiction.
CNS: Sounds like an aspect of that.
DARRYL: If we are going to decriminalize addiction, we have to augment the resources and interventions for treatment because it will be recognized as a medical condition so we need to address it as a medical problem. I am always fearful of changes that don’t result in adding the necessary resources for treatment. I certainly hope that doesn’t happen here.
CNS: It sounds like some potent changes are included in this document along with some semantic and politically correct statements, but it’s going to be 2 ½ years or so before it becomes finalized so we will have the chance to talk about it more. To those of you listening, please send us your comments or questions, we would love to hear them. Stop by our website, cnsproductions.com and drop us a note and we will respond if we can.
Treatment alternatives, the placebo effect and FDA approval process
Friday, February 12th, 2010We look at alternative aspects of treatment, such as the Buddhist 12-step program, and issues of “drunk-dreaming” as well as a new study review of anti-depression medication studies, the placebo effect and the FDA drug approval process.
Transcript (edited):
Welcome to the CNS Podcast featuring Dr. Darryl Inaba, research director for CNS Productions.
CNS: There are some interesting things in the news this week that talk about different aspects of treatment that we haven’t looked at before. The Buddhist approach to the 12-step program that was in the Huffington Post recently and an article by one of their regular commentators talking about “drunk dreams” experienced by people in recovery. They do okay during the day, but apparently at night they’re tortured to some extent by their dreams.
DARRYL: The concept of alternative treatment or complementary medicine as it relates to addiction is getting more attention and I think treatment programs should take a closer look. Things like yoga have good evidence based studies that show it is effective in helping maintain recovery. Buddhist meditation, mindfulness meditation or just mindfulness is also proving to be as effective as a 12-step program. Acupuncture is considered alternative treatment and shows tremendous usefulness in the treatment of addiction. So, what is considered alternative or complementary can help addicts. Equine therapy, pet therapy, aroma therapy and energy focused techniques like tapping are beginning to show evidence that they are effective.
In regards to dreams, you can have two types or maybe multiple types, but the two types the article refers to were dreams about getting high. People experience euphoric effects in their dreams – wake up and are triggered into missing their drug. That’s something that mindfulness meditation and Buddhism could be really helpful for because in Buddhism you don’t shut out or get rid of your thoughts, your thoughts are there and what you do is learn how not to react to them in a negative way. You learn to be aware of your thoughts, but not to react to them. The other types of “using dreams” are nightmares. They are terrifying dreams. They’re dreams in which you are back in relapse, suffering a tremendous amount of negative effects but not getting high at all; or you’re at home and the cops are breaking in and you’re paralyzed. You can’t move a muscle to swallow your stash or flush it down the toilet and so you’re going to get busted. Those are terrifying nightmares of a user’ past even though they can be useful because they help reinforce how far some one has come and how much they have accomplished and what they need to do to stay focused on recovery. The problem dreams referred to in the article are euphoric dreams. The euphoric dreams recall the feeling of being high, you dream you’re stoned.
CNS: This can act as a trigger and according to the article, it provoked guilt and fear that they were losing track of their recovery.
DARRYL: Dreams are an access to the subconscious and they’re generated by what we call the memory spikes or the memory bumps that have formed in the brain from the use and involvement with drugs. And, as far as I know, you never lose those memory bumps, those memory spikes, they’re always there. The brain of a person in recovery doesn’t use or access those memories so they become weaker, less prominent. This forces the brain to form loose networks of communication links that bypass those memories. But when you are in a sleep state, in a dream state, the access of memory is through the unconscious and through the networks that access the memory bumps associated with drugs. That can be extremely dangerous as we’ve seen with the stop paradigm in the control circuitry of the brain. Once an addict initiates an action, those memories and those bumps will cause an addict to want to use again and almost nothing is going to stop them because of the dysfunctional control circuitry of an addict’s brain. There are reports of people who have been 10 years, 20 years, maybe even 30 years in continuous recovery, having a using dream, waking up, and almost on a subconscious basis, picking up a hit. The next thing you know they’re in a full scale relapse. So it’s something we need to pay more attention to, to help addicts plan a strategy that will prevent them from using if they experience one of these dreams.
CNS: Another interesting story comes from Newsweek recently about the efficacy of placebos in contrast to antidepressant drugs. A new study indicates that 75% of the people participating in a couple of studies responded positively to sugar pills as opposed to serious antidepressant medication. What are your thoughts about placebos in general?
DARRYL: Well, first of all, Howard, the study does not surprise me at all. People should never short change or under appreciate the placebo effect. The medications that are developed to treat depression, to treat any kind of mental health issue, as well as any process in the brain, are simply mimicking or interfering or interacting with natural brain chemicals. We already have this whole pharmacy in our brain that consists of natural chemicals that serve as anti depressants, that manages excitement, fear and things like that. Placebos access that natural chemistry without actually using a drug. It’s the expectation of an effect or an expectation of some sort of benefit that causes a person to actually benefit from their own chemistry. Placebos create a true and powerful physiological reaction in people. I participated in placebo experiments as a student at University of California in Dr. Field’s laboratory. He had a lot of pharmacy, medical, and nursing students participate by taking a pill, which contained one of 3 possible drugs. All the pills were exactly the same so we didn’t know what we were getting and he didn’t know what he was giving us. This was a regular pharmacology double-blind crossover type of study, which is the Gold standard in terms of doing research on the efficacy of pharmacological substances. We got either 10 mg of methamphetamine, or 60 mg of codeine or milk sugar, the placebo. And it profoundly affects me to this day to remember that in this research, where nobody knew what they were getting, we had to measure our reaction…our blood pressure, pulse rate, our reaction ability, our ability to coordinate our muscles and our equilibrium. We had to do all these studies 30 or 40 minutes after the pill was absorbed through the stomach to see what would happen. Later on the code was broken, showing which student got which drug or the placebo and it was amazing to me that about 1/3 of the people who got only milk sugar had such dramatic physical reactions. Their blood pressure changed. Their heart rate changed. They experienced all kinds of physiological responses. I remember some people were actually hallucinating and experiencing a whole array of mental issues when in fact they got a placebo. Placebos are powerful in their real responses.
The second thing the Newsweek article pointed out is that we don’t have a good way of really evaluating medication. Double-blind crossover studies are designed to be used at the mid-point of research. For example, patient A who got pill #1 will get pill #2 at the crossover and patient B will switch from pill #2 to pill #1. This allows the researcher to get clarity on whether the patient is really reacting to the medication, to the placebo or to some other artifact of the study. The problem with crossover double-blind studies is they sometimes present an ethical question. That actually came up once during a syphilis study. The question was could a cynical compound or antibiotic treat syphilis. Placebos were given and it became a huge ethical issue. If someone has this debilitating, horrible disease and they receive milk sugar, their disease could get worse and worse and the person could suffer tremendous biological or medical problems. So is that something we should be doing? When a crossover design is not applied properly there is no way of determining the benefits from the pill. Is it a true antidepressant or are we seeing it as a partial placebo effect or a combination of placebo and antidepressant effects?
CNS: Another question addresses the FDA process which can take a long time and can keep drugs off the market here when they are in use already in Europe.
DARRYL: America is restricted from a lot of medications that might be effective for people who are suffering a disease. Is the push to get them approved as quickly as possible for the benefit of the patient or the company with a vested interest in getting it approved? The faster they get approval, the more time they have to benefit from their patent. A patent runs for 17 years after a drug is first registered. This includes development as well as the time the drug is put through the scrutiny process to determine its efficacy and its safety. The longer it takes to do that, the less time a drug company has an exclusive patent on the medication and the less money they will make. So, there are those two conflicting problems and I can see both sides. I can see the economic interests winning out sometimes in the pharmaceutical industry, but I also see the clinical issue. The FDA gets a lot of heat for the restrictions and difficulty in getting a medication approved that has the potential to ease suffering and save lives – there are people suffer or die waiting for drugs to be approved. There are two sides to this coin and we may have to find a way to strengthen our ability to address both sides so medications can be approved quickly enough, but at the same time be sure that the medication is going to do what it says it will and be extremely safe and not cause more harm.
CNS: Back to efficacy of the antidepressant medication. In many cases, it is the primary care physician, not the psychiatrists who are treating a patient for depression and it is easier for them to prescribe a pill rather than explore a whole range of things that might be most efficacious.
DARRYL: That is a concern, I think in psychiatry and in all the medicine. The majority of anti-psychotic, antidepressant, mood stabilizing drugs are prescribed by non-psychiatrists – by people who have very little training in regards to these medications and what they do, but more importantly very little training in the whole mental health diagnosis, prognosis and treatment alternative processes. That’s something that has to be more effectively addressed because I do think we are not as effective as we can be in addressing the mental health treatment needs.
CNS: Treatment is certainly on the front burner here in terms of a topic that is important and that’s going to be increasingly in the news as we see the mental health parody act go into effect.
We are always delighted to hear listeners’ comments or questions. Stop by our website: www.cnsproductions.com. Drop us a note and we will respond if we can.
Mental Illnesses and Addictions
Thursday, September 10th, 20091 in 4 Americans has a clinically-defined mental illness. In this weeks Addiction Radio podcast Dr Darryl Inaba looks at changes in the definitions of mental illnesses, some background and possible causes, and the increasing acceptance of the view of addiction as a mental health disease.
Transcript of podcast (click to listen):
Welcome to the CNS pod cast featuring Dr Darryl Inaba research director for CNS Productions.
CNS: Hello and welcome once again to the addiction radio pod cast from CNS Productions. I’m Howard LaMere here with Dr. Darryl Inaba and we were just talking here before we started recording about the number of people taking anti-depressants and your comment about the number of people that were categorized as having mental illness.
Darryl: Well, if you look at the National Institute of Health, their latest surveys in 2008 demonstrate that 26.2% that, that’s greater than one out of every four of us. 26.2% of the US population have a, or manifest a major neuro-phychiatric illness, something that’s diagnosable and treatable under the DSM4 standard manual diagnosis. The majority of it is, mood disorders, both affect disorders and bipolar disease, are the majority, they have the largest percentage, but then there are also all these different anxiety disorders, panic disorders, there’s the phobias, personality disorders, thought disorders; schizophrenia still represents only a small portion of those people with mental disorders, 1.1 or 1.2% but still when you take the whole group of them and, and realize that one in every four — greater than one in every four persons has a major mental illness then, then you can understand why there are so many people on these medications.
CNS: Right. So we’re not just talking about just being moderately depressed right, we’re talking about a serious mental illness?
Darryl: Yes, that the clinical diagnosis are made upon observations of certain symptoms and also manifestations, or the patient complaining of them lasting for a period of time. There are a number of tools like in major depression things called the Beck’s Depression Inventory, the mood inventories that can separate sort of just normal mundane daily mood shifts to serious debilitating depression that can disrupt somebody’s life. So we’re talking about real diagnosis and we’re talking about you know increasing, there’s been an increasing number of people with depressions. People with major mental illnesses and partially that is because of a different way of counting, maybe we certainly have more mental illnesses than we used to before and every year with the, every time the DSM is edited they add more to it. The current DSM, what they call the DSM diagnostic standard manual number four revised, is in revision to become number five. The DSM5 and in that, serious consideration of including things like internet gaming, internet game dependence and things like that, but a lot of people don’t realize that there are conditions, impulse control disorders — that once addiction used to be called an impulse control disorder, that are included in the current DSM, things like shopping, things like hoarding, things that people may not have thought of as actual pathologic or actually due to mental illness. But we are talking and, your question was you know, is it a real serious condition and we’re talking everybody, at least my daughters anyway love, love to shop, lots of people hoard little things, you know, save rubber bands, save coupons, and things like that. But, but we’re talking pathological, we’re talking beyond the normal realm of people just doing things like that, a pathological shopper has maxed out all of her credit cards, or his credit cards and are in deep trouble for purchasing or, for finances and yet when you go to their abodes or you, you visit them they have just shopping bags that have never been emptied, full of things that they are never going to need you know they’ve got two showers in the house they’ve got twelve Water-Pic shower heads. Things like that and that speaks to a different pathology, a hoarder may hoard food, they may hoard food where its all moldy and turned rancid and real bad but they just do not give it up and, and that’s pathological, that goes beyond normal practices with those conditions so, these mental illnesses all have medical treatments. They are all recognized to affect certain parts of the brain and the development of medications to treat those areas of the brain is what’s been happening so its not, it really is not unusual that we have a huge number of people now on mental health medications. You know, we’re treating so many conditions that we used to just take care or we used to tolerate or we used to notice some person was odd, and that may be short sided because maybe they were suffering you know, if people with these conditions are really suffering it’s a negative in terms of their ego and maybe we should do something to help but, you know, I cant help but think that the brain and the body is such a beautiful organ in terms of keeping its balance and noticing when things are out of balance and then reacting to it and adapting to bring the body more toward balance and when we short circuit the bodies ability to respond and adapt to different neurochemical imbalances by immediately rushing to the most recent fad medication to treat this condition or that condition, we further insult the balance in the chemistry and the ability for the body to try and balance itself and in doing so we may continue to perpetuate or to weaken our emotional states and our biological states because we just are just used to instant gratification and instant response and satisfying our need. But that’s … it leads to a huge philosophical argument about human existence and when are people feeling good and when do we need to intervene and the argument that you present but certainly we seem to be a society that’s headed toward medicating ourselves into not being able to be suited to live on earth without being artificially, we, we become cyborgs or robots to this earth.
CNS: It does remind us, it reminds me of science fiction books that I read as a teenager.
Darryl: And as we continue to perpetuate our species in such a way we continue to become farther suitable to be here. We become an infection on earth so to speak and what human beings are doing is just, they’re just, a so much unhappiness and so much unrest, so much envy, so much anger, so much ignorance, that in order to deal with it we find ourselves becoming mentally unhealthy or seeking either prescription medications to make us feel, at least artificially sound or seeking drugs of abuse, seeking our own drugs to try and make ourselves feel better.
CNS: It seems like we’re developing an attitude that recognizes addiction more as a disease, as opposed to a moral weakness and that seems like its very useful.
Darryl: If we can actually, in general that is, if we can ask a society, nation or group of people, even as the world began to accept that addiction is a biological, cellular body condition and not a moral weakness or a shirking or just a need to get loaded by human beings that would be a major, major event. The evidence, this is one of my soap boxes, since I began in this field over forty years ago, the evidence is just overwhelming, overwhelming, just staggering, warehouses full of papers and scientific research that’s been well vetted and well understood empirical studies that show that addiction is a biological anomaly or, a disease or disorder or, you know, schizophrenia is and so is depression, so is diabetes, so is hypertension, so is heart disease, they’re not because somebody wants to be diabetic, or wants to slough off, its because they have processing biology in a different way that the majority of people process things and, and the evidence is very clear we even have the histology we even recognize the cells themselves and what they look like that are different within an alcoholic verses a non-alcoholic and an addict and a non-addict. We know the places in the brain that are functioning differently and these circuitries and the big science world, we are now pursuing is, looking at the chronic relapsers and why some addicts and alcoholics relapse more than others and we’re finding discrete areas of the brain that can predict whether or not a person is going to relapse or not so, all the evidence is there but some how through the history and to the current time the majority of the public even with the passage of the addiction equity act that says you have to no longer discriminate against addicts because they have an illness just like diabetes even with that act the vast majority of this country want to view addicts and alcoholics as somebody who is criminal, somebody who wants to just slough off responsibilities, somebody who is just weak-willed and bad and stupid and crazy and non-educated, and the evidence is the opposite. Addicts are amongst our most wonderful people but they have a biological anomaly they have a biologic system that causes them to react to the world in a totally different way, and react to drugs in a totally different way than the majority of people react to them.
CNS: Yeah a genetic pre-disposition.
Darryl: It’s partially genetics and, and I want to always emphasis that, because genetics sort of sets the template for how people are going to react and how their biological systems are going to be but then it’s a combination not just of genetics but stress plays a role in how your brain chemistry responds and how your brain function responds and, chronic stress and emotional situations also effect the way your brain is going to react and the food you eat determines your brain chemistry and, and then finally the toxicology of the drugs themselves, certain drugs effect the right areas of the brain and then certain toxic areas that if you’re pre-disposed genetically then you’re going to respond a lot quicker. If you’re not pre-disposed genetically you’re going to, you’re not going to have as much problem, you’ll be able to delay it for longer and longer period of time or some people just are not born pre-disposed to addiction and they’re never going to develop it but for those who are you still have to have the drug that initiates all of that. But what’s initiated is not because you’re weak, it’s not because you want to slough off, it’s because you have a biological condition that robs you of your ability to stop using once you start using.
CNS: Well we’re not going to answer this question obviously and its an ongoing one, obviously it is a philosophical as well as a mental question, a mental health question and we’re just going to continue looking at it, I guess and, do the best we can. I think it does help to talk about it and so thanks Darryl. If any of you have any comments or questions we would very much love to hear them. Go to our website which is cnsproductions.com and just drop us an email, ask a question, make a comment and we’ll try to reply or respond as possible. Thank you very much Darryl, talk to you soon.
Darryl: Thank you Howard
CNS: That wraps our pod for today. Thanks for visiting the CNS pod cast. Please check back soon for the next in the series and visit our website www.cnsproductions.com






